[BenM]

I won't know as much as Jeff but the preamp section will most certainly have an effect on tone shaping. I've always thought the preamp was more of a tone shaper than the power amp section. I've been messed with my preamp section last year and it made a huge difference. Seems to me that the preamp really shapes the tone and the power amp section finishes it off.

If you're looking for the most headroom, a 6L6 should be a better fit than 6V6.

This post has been edited by BenM: 09 March 2010 - 02:22 PM

[Jeff Goldberg]

The preamp tubes very much have to do with the tone shaping... but the power tubes should be decided upon first since it affects the overall timbre.

Think of the power tubes as choosing the cut of meat, and the preamp tubes as the rub/marinade selection for said cut of meat.

Just retube the amp with fresh tubes of the intended types. Stick with 6L6s. And stick to 12AX7s to start as well. You'll have your hands full playing with tone with just sticking with the intended tube types. Make sure the mA of the power tubes is matched, and also make sure that your amp is biased correctly for that rating.

American NOS tubes tend to sound the best- but they're expensive, and you risk buying a bad tube. Getting a bad NOS tube sucks.

Current Russian tubes are a good go-to-guy. I'd steer clear of Chinese tubes though.

Once you have a "stock" HRD, then you'll have a correct referant with which you can make a decision about how (or IF) you want to change anything.

Make sense?

[McGuyver]

Yes indeed, thanks Jeff. How would I make sure the mA of the power tubes are matched if I'm ordering online? Don't order online and go to a store? :rimshot:

I'm also not sure how to check the bias rating. Is that located on the schematics somewhere?

[D/S]

McGuyver, on 09 March 2010 - 07:16 PM, said:

Yes indeed, thanks Jeff. How would I make sure the mA of the power tubes are matched if I'm ordering online? Don't order online and go to a store? :rimshot:

I'm also not sure how to check the bias rating. Is that located on the schematics somewhere?

If I were you I'd take a look at this guy's tube store Eurotubes.com. He seems to know his shit and I've read a lot of good reviews of his tube packages he sells for various amps. The link I sent you has some info on biasing a HRD, which I didn't think was possible.

Here's the link to his tube kits. He tests, and pairs each set before he sends them out.

[Jeff Goldberg]

It should be noted that an ECC83 of any type (ECC83S, ECC832, etc.) is another way of saying "12AX7."

[McGuyver]

Wow D/S that's just the site I was looking for, thanks! Looks like I'm going to try and have my pops dial back my bias back to about 70, since from reading his ext. link about HR's, that seems to be a much better 'more headroom' setting.

I think I'm going to get one of the ~$70 full retube kits and try to find one that's all clean, I see a couple options so far that I may be interested in, but it's late =P



Thanks Jeff.

[D/S]

McGuyver, on 09 March 2010 - 11:26 PM, said:

Wow D/S that's just the site I was looking for, thanks! Looks like I'm going to try and have my pops dial back my bias back to about 70, since from reading his ext. link about HR's, that seems to be a much better 'more headroom' setting.

I think I'm going to get one of the ~$70 full retube kits and try to find one that's all clean, I see a couple options so far that I may be interested in, but it's late =P



Thanks Jeff.

You're welcome Capt! When the time comes to re-tube my Blues Deluxe I'm going with his 6V6 kit.

[McGuyver]

So I don't have the money for the tubes right now, but I looked at the bias of my amp. It was set to ~63. I had looked online and found that the factory was supposed to be 50 mV, so I decided I'd see how it sounded lower. 58 sounded MUCH better, but then I tried the "stock" ~50/51; and the headroom was tenfold.

So basically if it craps out in the next couple weeks, does that mean:

A) The bias was too low?

B) The tubes were probably old/bad/low quality (Please elaborate, these are however; the stock Fender tubes I believe, all of them say Fender on them), meaning the bias is Okay.


On that eurotubes.com site, the guy said that 70 mV is a nice setting for more headroom on a HRD, whereas 90 will get you more break-up earlier.

I'm assuming the bias is pretty dependent on the tubes quality/brand/etc. that are installed? Because if I had turned my bias up to 70, from beyond the ~62; it would've gotten much dirtier.

But by reading his site, I'm guessing that installing his JJ tubes (eurotubes.com) and running at 50 mV would be harmful to the tubes? Which is kind of why I'm confused at the stock setting and all this bias mumbo jumbo.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

This post has been edited by McGuyver: 19 March 2010 - 01:03 PM

[McGuyver]

Bump on the Bias [Question]

[DonCorleone]

If you are using the bias test point inside the HRDx, then you are actually taking a reading from both tubes at the same time, so the number should be halved for each tube. IOW, if you are reading 50mV at the HRDx Bias Test Point, you are only measuring 25mV for each tube. I routinely bias my HRDx in the 80-90mV range (usually ~83mV), knowing that's only 40-45mV per side. Going colder won't hurt anything until you get to the point where it's ghost-noting and kinda brittle sounding, but there are a *wide* range of acceptable #'s to shoot for. The only hard and fast rule that i know of is to not go above 70% of the plate dissipation for the tube you are using. Fwiw, i use Svet Winged C 6l6s, so i can go up to ~92mV, combined, and still be under the 70% threshold. Just check the spec sheet for the tubes you are upgrading to. If biasing the original tubes that low made them sound that much better, they may have already been shot.

Also, I would not recommend putting just any 6v6 in an HRDx, they are not built to handle the plate current present in these amps, period. Bob at Eurotubes sells his 6v6 kit b/c he knows for a fact that those JJs will handle it, but no other brand of 6v6 is that sturdy, so please don't think that 6v6s are straight plug-and-play in that amp. I've seen the results, not pretty...

d

[McGuyver]

DonCorleone, on 22 March 2010 - 04:49 AM, said:

If you are using the bias test point inside the HRDx, then you are actually taking a reading from both tubes at the same time, so the number should be halved for each tube. IOW, if you are reading 50mV at the HRDx Bias Test Point, you are only measuring 25mV for each tube. I routinely bias my HRDx in the 80-90mV range (usually ~83mV), knowing that's only 40-45mV per side. Going colder won't hurt anything until you get to the point where it's ghost-noting and kinda brittle sounding, but there are a *wide* range of acceptable #'s to shoot for. The only hard and fast rule that i know of is to not go above 70% of the plate dissipation for the tube you are using. Fwiw, i use Svet Winged C 6l6s, so i can go up to ~92mV, combined, and still be under the 70% threshold. Just check the spec sheet for the tubes you are upgrading to. If biasing the original tubes that low made them sound that much better, they may have already been shot.

Also, I would not recommend putting just any 6v6 in an HRDx, they are not built to handle the plate current present in these amps, period. Bob at Eurotubes sells his 6v6 kit b/c he knows for a fact that those JJs will handle it, but no other brand of 6v6 is that sturdy, so please don't think that 6v6s are straight plug-and-play in that amp. I've seen the results, not pretty...

d

Thanks Don, I'm actually looking for more headroom, so I was looking at his 6L6 kits, the max headroom option actually. Does your 80-90 6V6 break up pretty easily? I ask because I'm looking for the opposite.

[DonCorleone]

McGuyver, on 22 March 2010 - 02:36 PM, said:

Thanks Don, I'm actually looking for more headroom, so I was looking at his 6L6 kits, the max headroom option actually. Does your 80-90 6V6 break up pretty easily? I ask because I'm looking for the opposite.

The Winged C's are 6L6s and there is plenty of headroom. It starts to break up a bit around 4-5 on the volume knob w/ both singles and 'buckers, real crunchy around 6-7. I've never used the 6V6s in there myself, only fixed one that had, so i'm not sure how they sound, but i would imagine that you wouldn't get anymore headroom out of it, probably the opposite. the JJs are probably your best bet for pure clean headroom, they have a more modern sound to them than something like the Svets, and don't break up *quite* as early.

One option you may want to check out also is swapping the Phase Inverter (V3) with a 12AT7. the overall volume will be a little less, but you'll have to absolutely slam the front end to get it to break up at all before about 10 or so on the volume, and it'll still be plenty loud...i played that setup in a two-guitar band for a while with no "volume" issues.

d

This post has been edited by DonCorleone: 22 March 2010 - 07:02 PM

[McGuyver]

Well the thing is with my set-up, I'm a pedal freak. So I get all my break-up and overdrive through front-loading the signal that way, and always using the amp on a clean setting.

The thing with my set-up is, I keep the clean volume set at like literally 2, maybe 2.5? But my Compressor beefs the signal to the volume at the amp at about 4 or 5. So would you still recommend the phase inverted 12AT7? There's plenty of volume on that amp IMO, especially with my compressor. But I wouldn't want a really drastic drop if that's what it would be.

[DonCorleone]

McGuyver, on 24 March 2010 - 12:43 PM, said:

Well the thing is with my set-up, I'm a pedal freak. So I get all my break-up and overdrive through front-loading the signal that way, and always using the amp on a clean setting.

The thing with my set-up is, I keep the clean volume set at like literally 2, maybe 2.5? But my Compressor beefs the signal to the volume at the amp at about 4 or 5. So would you still recommend the phase inverted 12AT7? There's plenty of volume on that amp IMO, especially with my compressor. But I wouldn't want a really drastic drop if that's what it would be.

The difference in volume is not that drastic, and can more than be made up for by turning up either the amp or the compressor. Fwiw, the 12AT7 is the most common value for that slot in most Blackface Fender amps, so if you're into that classic Fender thing and smacking it with Tubescreamers and fuzzes and whatnot, it may be just the ticket.

d

[Freddy Freeloader]

Just to piggy back on McGuyver's inquiries... I have an early 70's Silverface Fender Super Reverb. I want to replace my power tubes. Recently, I have had some output performance issues that seem to be attributed to the power tubes.

Anyway, this amp is my dream come true. I love it. My only issue is that it starts to break up beautifully at a volume of around 4. My problem is that I am mainly playing in bars, and the volume at 4 will drown out the rest of the band and blow everyone's ears out in the room. I would like to get that natural breakup at just over 3, where I usually have the amp set.

I have been eyeing some GT 6L6 GE (low rated at 3 or 4). GT says that the low rated tubes break up earlier, so I figured that might help my issue. Would 6V6's do this even better? FWIW, I am not too much of a lead guitar player. I am more interested in getting a nice vintage rhythm tone. I would like to try a few options, but don't want to start ponying up tons of cash on tubes :sly:

[McGuyver]

From what I have been reading it sounds like you want to go with 6V6s, though I'm certainly not the expert here. The general consensus I get is that 6L6 > 6V6 when it comes to headroom, 6V6 > 6L6 when it comes to natural break up.

[DonCorleone]

Freddy Freeloader, on 26 March 2010 - 05:59 AM, said:

Just to piggy back on McGuyver's inquiries... I have an early 70's Silverface Fender Super Reverb. I want to replace my power tubes. Recently, I have had some output performance issues that seem to be attributed to the power tubes.

Anyway, this amp is my dream come true. I love it. My only issue is that it starts to break up beautifully at a volume of around 4. My problem is that I am mainly playing in bars, and the volume at 4 will drown out the rest of the band and blow everyone's ears out in the room. I would like to get that natural breakup at just over 3, where I usually have the amp set.

I have been eyeing some GT 6L6 GE (low rated at 3 or 4). GT says that the low rated tubes break up earlier, so I figured that might help my issue. Would 6V6's do this even better? FWIW, I am not too much of a lead guitar player. I am more interested in getting a nice vintage rhythm tone. I would like to try a few options, but don't want to start ponying up tons of cash on tubes :sly:

To repeat myself from earlier, 6V6s are not direct replacements for 6L6s, even though they are the same pinout. 6L6s are usually found in amps running at least 40w and running 400v+ of plate current. Those numbers will fry most 6V6s, so unless you have a competent tech set you up beforehand, I wouldn't risk that on my "dream" amp, seeing as Supers run about 60w and 400-440v or so of plate current.

Your idea of going with some early break-up power tubes is probably right on though. My only advice there would be not to use Groove Tubes. I've had them around, off and on, for the last 20 years and they are easily my least favorite 6L6, to my ears they're pretty sterile and lack any serious harmonic character or depth. The new Tung Sols and Svetlanas are my fav's, but even stepping up to Electro-Harmonix is a step up in my book. Most online places now, like the Tube Store, rate all their tubes for break-up also, not just the GTs, so you could still find some lower number ones in the better brands.

No matter what though, that Super is a sweet amp, I'd keep it as stock as possible and just upgrade the tubes, rather than trying to swap into something that's not really compatible.

d

This post has been edited by DonCorleone: 26 March 2010 - 02:32 PM

[McGuyver]

Can't recommend the Eurotubes guys enough. I love the Max Headroom option I got for the HRD, everything about the amp sounds better. Lovin these JJ tubes :hugs:

[D/S]

McGuyver, on 26 May 2010 - 12:27 PM, said:

Can't recommend the Eurotubes guys enough. I love the Max Headroom option I got for the HRD, everything about the amp sounds better. Lovin these JJ tubes :hugs:

Glad it worked out for ya. I was really close to getting the 6v6 package but my pos morley volume pedal shit the bed, so I had to buy an Ernie Ball. I called Eurotubes and they were extremely helpful. I upped the bias on my Blues Deluxe's stock tubes and it helped a bit. What's your bias at McGuyver? I set mine to 87, my amp has WAY too much headroom!

[McGuyver]

D/S, on 26 May 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:

Glad it worked out for ya. I was really close to getting the 6v6 package but my pos morley volume pedal shit the bed, so I had to buy an Ernie Ball. I called Eurotubes and they were extremely helpful. I upped the bias on my Blues Deluxe's stock tubes and it helped a bit. What's your bias at McGuyver? I set mine to 87, my amp has WAY too much headroom!

I'm actually running my bias only at ~72-73. With the 6L6 package I got from Eurotubes, there's headroom for days at this setting, I don't hear the amp breaking up until after 6 really. And that is WAY too f'ing loud.