[Mr. Beermug]

As long as you're all off to the races on theory, I came back across a simple two chord progression that I came up with a while back and had forgotten about.

Bbm7 AMaj7

My theory is, by all means, pretty meager so please excuse in advance my likely confusing of certain terms, but the more I look at this the more interesting (and confusing) it becomes. In trying to figure out how I was playing over this and how I even could play over it, the strongest pull for me was to treat the Bbm7 as a ii-7 (in the key of Ab Major) and the AMaj7 as a IVM7 (in the key of E Major) because I most often swtiched between soloing with a Bb Dorian and an A Lydian scale. The voice leading for me seems to work really well but in a bizarre way since the m3 and m7 of the Bbm7 end up, ironically as the stable tones as the root Bb --> A and the fifth F --> E both drop down a half step to create the AMaj7 chord, though as the unstable "coloring tones" of the note, I'd generally expect them to be the notes that resolve elsewhere and not the 1 and P5 notes (which is also evidence of the resolution switching key tonality).

I realized a few additional ideas straying into my playing.......both the Bb and A wholetone scales sound great when inserted in the right spots, since the A wholetone is the first three notes of the Lydian and the fourth, fifth, and sixth notes of the Bb dorian, and the Bb wholetone is the first three notes of the Bb dorian and the fourth, fifth, and sixth notes of the A Lydian.....a nice little overlap which I realized was probably part natural voice leading and part the fact that 11 of the 12 tones of the chromatic scale exist when the Bb dorian and the A Lydian are combined.

I also noticed that I was playing the Bb blues and the Ab blues scales at different times and thought they mostly sounded good across the two chord progression (which to me seems like I was just treating the Bb as a 6th degree blues chord, though for the AMaj7/ IVM7 it seemed I was substituting the 6th degree blues scale in place of the iii G# Phrygian? and that the bluesiness probably sounded good particularly because the added blues passing tone mirrors the half step move in chord tones).

And I noticed my playing this altered minor scale (not sure what it would be called, perhaps an Aeolian b5?, which again has elements of both the Bbm7 and AMaj7 fused together)....

E|------------------------------------------------------|
B|------------------------------------------------------|
G|------------------------------------------------------|
D|-------------------7-9-------------------------------|
A|-----------6-7-9-------------------------------------|
E|---6-8-9---------------------------------------------|


When experimenting with a little more chromatic voice leading in the progression, I stretched it to:

|: Bbm7 AMaj7 G#Maj7 G#m7 :| which I read as

ii-7 of Ab
IVMaj7 of E
IMaj7 of Ab
iii-7 of E

and also sounding good is

|: Bbm7 AMaj7 G#m7 / :| which it seems can either be seen as

ii-7 of Ab
IVMaj7 of E
iii-7 of E

OR, if the Bb is viewed as an A#, I can also see it being the

iii-7 of F#
IVMaj7 of E
ii-7 of F#

and I know I've seen a simple whole step key change before.



So, music theory lords.........what thinks ye/how incredibly far off am I/etc? Wait, I think I might sneeze. I might snee......

http://www.rockiescast.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/head-explode1.jpg

This post has been edited by Mr. Beermug: 16 December 2009 - 11:07 PM

[Benji]

First, try to think of it as a key. You've got the notes Bb Db F Ab for Bbm7 and A C# E G# for AMaj7. G# and Ab are the same, Db and C# are the same. The only real conflict is Ab A Bb, three half steps in a row.

So obviously these chords are not in the same key. You are playing back and forth between two different keys. The Bbm7 could be they keys of Ab, Gb, or Db. The AMaj7 could be the key of A or E.

Everything you've said is correct. The great thing about mixing chord scales from different keys is that you have so many options. So far you've explored some of you major key options. Next, try the Bbm7 as an Ab melodic minor, and the AMaj7 as an F# melodic minor. The two scales are only a whole step away which will help to make it a little easier to play. Once you become comfortable with these scales, you'll have some really cool sounds to throw in every once in a while between your regular major scales.

This post has been edited by Benji: 16 December 2009 - 10:40 PM

[Mr. Beermug]

Okay, so I wasn't actually aware that I'd correctly named the scale I "invented" (damn, guess I didn't invent squat), Bb Aeolian b5, and that it's one of the melodic minor modes. I confess I've not really explored melodic minor much since back when I was self-learning some theory I got gummed up after learning how the classical and jazz conceptions of melodic minor differed - as in the classical scale has a note that changes whether you're ascending or descending, but jazz doesn't treat melodic minor the same way.

I feel like I need some more tangible reference points to illuminate the melodic minor sound and its application for it to start having more relevance to me. Would be glad to hear any suggestions, as well as more comments about what I discussed above. Are melodic minor modes and their related chords usually used as passing scales/chords or brief flavorful departures from a more standard progression, or is the melodic minor family often used for full progressions/compositions?

This post has been edited by Mr. Beermug: 16 December 2009 - 11:25 PM

[phnord]

Well, the first thing I would like to mention here is in regards to modes vs. scale inversions. What's going on here is that you are straying into Jazz theory while still holding onto the vocabulary of Classical theory.

You are seeing the Bbm7 as a ii7 because you are playing an inverted Ab Major scale over it, and you are seeing the AMaj7 as a IVMaj7 because you are playing an inverted E Major scale over it.

In Classical theory, these assumptions would be correct - as (mostly) Classical theory exclusively uses the vocabulary of the Natural Major and Natural (or Harmonic / Melodic) Minor scales to define tonality. Jazz theory does not.

The Natural Major (Ionian) scale and the Natural Minor (Aeolian) scale in fact hold no special place in Jazz theory. They are just some of the available modes via which to organize the pitches around your tonal center.

In fact, they are considered to be less-useful modes than certain other modes. And guess what? While in Classical theory, the go-to modes are the Natural Major and Natural Minor, in Jazz theory, the go to modes are the Lydian and Dorian modes - exactly the two that sounded most "right" to you over your progression!

The most important thing you can get out of this is that while your A Lydian scale has the same notes as the E Major scale, this does not mean that it is apart of an E Major scale - nor that the A chord wants to move to an E chord. A mode is best thought of not as an inverted Major scale but rather as a set of pitches organized around it's root.

When thinking of it this way, we can see that the A Lydian scale contains the following intervals:

| Root | Major 2nd | Major 3rd | Augmented 4th | Perfect 5th | Major 6th | Major 7th |
|   A  |     B     |     C#    |       D#      |      E      |     F#    |     G#    |

With these intervals, we can see that the only difference between it and an A Major scale is that the Fourth is "reaching up" to the Fifth as opposed to "falling down" into the Third. This gives it a brighter sound, as you probably know. It is also a more stable sound, because the Augmented Fourth is in fact a naturally occurring overtone of the Root: it is the eleventh harmonic I believe. You can prove this for yourself: go pull out your guitar and strike the harmonic just before the second fret on the neck on the A string. If you get it right, you'll produce a D# - proving that it is a naturally occurring overtone of the fundamental A.

The most appropriate way to view modes from a Jazz stand point, then, would be to take a look at how they vary from each-other. If you were to do that for the Greek Modes, we can go from the Lydian scale and flat notes until we are all the way down at Locrian:

Lydian

| Root | Major 2nd | Major 3rd | Augmented 4th | Perfect 5th | Major 6th | Major 7th |
|   A  |     B     |     C#    |       D#      |      E      |     F#    |     G#    |

Ionian (Natural Major)

| Root | Major 2nd | Major 3rd | Perfect 4th | Perfect 5th | Major 6th | Major 7th |
|   A  |     B     |     C#    |      D      |      E      |     F#    |     G#    |

Mixolydian

| Root | Major 2nd | Major 3rd | Perfect 4th | Perfect 5th | Major 6th | Minor 7th |
|   A  |     B     |     C#    |      D      |      E      |     F#    |     G     |

Dorian

| Root | Major 2nd | Minor 3rd | Perfect 4th | Perfect 5th | Major 6th | Minor 7th |
|   A  |     B     |     C     |      D      |      E      |     F#    |     G     |

Aeolian (Natural Minor)

| Root | Major 2nd | Minor 3rd | Perfect 4th | Perfect 5th | Minor 6th | Minor 7th |
|   A  |     B     |     C     |      D      |      E      |     F     |     G     |

Phrygian

| Root | Minor 2nd | Minor 3rd | Perfect 4th | Perfect 5th | Minor 6th | Minor 7th |
|   A  |     Bb    |     C     |      D      |      E      |     F     |     G     |

Locrian

| Root | Minor 2nd | Minor 3rd | Perfect 4th | Diminished 5th | Minor 6th | Minor 7th |
|   A  |     Bb    |     C     |      D      |       Eb       |     F     |     G     |

As you can see on that chart, Dorian is not only brighter than the Natural Minor scale, it is also more stable - as the Minor Sixth no longer threatens to "fall" into the Perfect Fifth.

This post has been edited by phnord: 17 December 2009 - 06:26 AM

[phnord]

Mr. Beermug, on 16 December 2009 - 11:21 PM, said:

I feel like I need some more tangible reference points to illuminate the melodic minor sound and its application for it to start having more relevance to me. Would be glad to hear any suggestions, as well as more comments about what I discussed above. Are melodic minor modes and their related chords usually used as passing scales/chords or brief flavorful departures from a more standard progression, or is the melodic minor family often used for full progressions/compositions?

It really all depends on what effect you are going for. Remember: a scale is whatever you make it to be. Working with a mode drawn from the notes of an inverted melodic minor scale does not mean that those notes will have any special significance. It's the same with working with any scale - what matters is the intervals between the notes and the root, between the notes and each other, and how you use them in your playing.

So for instance, lets say you liked the Mixolydian sound but wanted to screw with it - perhaps "brighten it up" a bit. You could sharp the Fourth scale degree, turning it into an Augmented Fourth:

| Root | Major 2nd | Major 3rd | Augmented 4th | Perfect 5th | Major 6th | Minor 7th |
|   A  |     B     |     C#    |       D#      |      E      |     F#    |     G     |

Now instead of having a Fourth that falls down to the Third, it lifts into the Fifth. And you still have the Mixolydian quality of the Seventh falling to the Sixth instead of pulling up emphatically into the Root.

It turns out that this is in fact an inversion of the Melodic Minor scale - it is specifically it's fourth inversion and therefore contains the same notes as an E Melodic Minor scale. However, this is unimportant - and doesn't mean that when you play it you will be wanting to return to an E Minor chord.

What is important is how the scale degrees relate to each other and especially to the note A - as you have defined that as your tonal center. Inverting the E Melodic Minor will just create pitch-sets to explore, but their significance and functions are a result of the intervals in that pitch-set.

This post has been edited by phnord: 17 December 2009 - 06:36 AM

[Ivan_Wading]

if you're chords are playing B flat minor, and A major 7, you are basically in D melodic minor, right?

[Benji]

Ivan_Wading, on 17 December 2009 - 12:36 PM, said:

if you're chords are playing B flat minor, and A major 7, you are basically in D melodic minor, right?

You wouldn't have an A major 7 in D melodic minor, you'd have an A7b13 - A B C# D E F G. And you wouldn't have a Bb minor of any kind, you'd have a Bm7b5nat9.

[phnord]

Ivan_Wading, on 17 December 2009 - 12:36 PM, said:

if you're chords are playing B flat minor, and A major 7, you are basically in D melodic minor, right?

No. First of all, as Benji mentioned neither of those chords even exist within the notes of a D Melodic Minor scale.

More importantly however, there is no reason that D would be the Root of the scale. Even if it did have all of the notes of the D Melodic Minor scale, unless you were heading to (or coming from) a chord progression with a strong emphasis on D, I would not call it a D anything.

I as no individual standard mode contains the notes of these chords, I would say the progression alternates back and forth between the modes of Bb Dorian and A Lydian. Furthermore, I would go so far as to say each acts as the Tonic during the period of time that you are on the chord, and A is in fact Tonicized when you go to it. However, I would probably say the overall key of the song (if the song just consists of these two chords back and forth) would be Bb Dorian, as since there is no other means of deciding which chord is more important, the Bb holds more importance being on the strong beat.

[Ivan_Wading]

yes, there is no G# in D, and B flat minor is not in D either, but I am looking at this as a vi V in D. even though it should be a major VI, and the A should have a dominant 7th, I'm seeing these as inflections or "passing tones" in classic theory. Perhaps I am thinking too classically, but I'm seeing a resolution in D minor or major. i havent heard it the way you play it, but when i strummed those chords, i was aching to play that D after.

[phnord]

Ivan_Wading, on 17 December 2009 - 05:11 PM, said:

yes, there is no G# in D, and B flat minor is not in D either, but I am looking at this as a vi V in D. even though it should be a major VI, and the A should have a dominant 7th, I'm seeing these as inflections or "passing tones" in classic theory. Perhaps I am thinking too classically, but I'm seeing a resolution in D minor or major. i havent heard it the way you play it, but when i strummed those chords, i was aching to play that D after.

Well if that is what you're hearing, you should obviously go with your ear. However if you are doing that, what you're looking for is not D Melodic Minor - it would be D Harmonic Minor. D Melodic Minor has a B natural, while D Harmonic Minor has a Bb (while still having the C#).

I'm not going to tell you that it is "wrong" to hear it going to D Minor. In fact, I think we should take a look at the pitches used in each chord and see how they could resolve to D Minor for you:

|  Minor Sixth  | Major Seventh |  Minor Third | Augmented Fourth |
|      Bb       |     Db (C#)   |      F       |      Ab (G#)     |

| Perfect Fifth | Major Seventh | Major Second | Augmented Fourth |
|       A       |      C#       |      E       |        G#        |

|      Root     | Root (Octave) |  Major Third |   Perfect Fifth  |
|       D       |       D       |      F       |        A         |

So the first chord, then, would be pretty tense against the tonality of D Minor: the Root Bbm7 wants to fall to the Fifth of Dm, the Third of Bbm7 wants to pull up to the Root of Dm, and the Seventh of Bbm7 wants to pull up to the Fifth of Dm (while the Fifth of Bbm7 remains as a common-tone to Dm).

As we move to A, the Root of Bbm7 falls to the Root of Amaj7 - which is the Fifth of Dm. The Third of Bbm7 is held over as the Third of the Amaj7 - which again is still yearning to pull up to the Root of Dm. The Fifth of Bbm7 has fallen to the Fifth of A (the Second of Dm), and the Seventh of Bm7 is held over as the Seventh of A, which is still eager to resolve up to the Fifth of Dm.

And then in the movement from Amaj7->D, we have the V->I motion of A->D, the inevitable resolution of the C#->D and G#->A, while the E pulls itself up to F.

So can these chords lead to D minor? Yes, and convincingly so. However, again, I would not consider these chords as apart of D Melodic Minor. Rather they are chords that use some tones from D Harmonic Minor, while borrowing others from other modes for color.

Does that make sense?

[Ivan_Wading]

makes sense. i played the chords and D major or D minor both work as resolution

[Mr. Beermug]

So D minor would be a strong key to modulate to, even if I look at the initial progression as phnord said, a Bb Dorian to A Lydian repetition with the Bb being the central "key", if we'd even call it that aside from just being the slightly stronger root between the two.